Amateur Operator, PLease Help...

[Robert J. Neep]

Hello;

I need some advice because I am lame.

I bought an entry level system (Magiqcam) and feel I have reached an impass with my skills.

[THE PROBLEM] : I have the usual slight "swing/off horizon" problems. But the one that is killing my shots is what can only be described as "THE BOUNCE."  The shot bounces with my step, I have tried every kind of walking and pace I can think of.

So the question is... Is it my rig? Is it a poor design or is it something simple like the spring tension in the arms? Or should I find a new hobby???

I am shooting Nature/Desert landscape video with my Sony HVR-Z1U.  So the kind of shots I want are very long and smooth and not a lot of panning/tilting.

Do I spend 10K for a "PRO" system and get 10x the return? or do I need a better understanding of the physics and operation of a "Steadicam" type system?

I would be so happy for any advice I can get, I know there so many talented people using this site.

Thank you for reading my "SOS"

Robert J. Neep
Elk Grove, California

[Kevin Clark]

OK, now we're chasing each others tails. I just posted in the topic I split from your original post and moved to this form and you started a new thread and ... bla bla bla.

NOW, that we're on the same page (hopefully) you say your having a problem with bounce. Can you tell me how much your sled weighs? Battery, monitor, camera... the works. If you have a short piece of video as well that would be great.

Typically the lower cost rigs do exhibit more "springiness: than the more costly, heavily engineered, iso-elastic rigs. Now I use the term iso-elastic loosely because there is frequent debate over what it truly means or more to the point if there are any truly iso-elastic arms for camera mounts outside the human arm. The bottom line is a Mercedes will always out perform a Volkswagen. They both do the same basic thing but they do it in diffrent ways. Having said that, you could take the best driver in the world and put him/her in the Volkswagen and a 15yr old on their learner's permit in the Mercedes and you would probably get very diffrent results. The point being first we crawl, then we walk, then we run. There is nothing better than a good foundation of skills and technique - which come of course from knowledge, practice and trial and error.

More to your point, you may want to try to "detune" your spring adjustments a bit so that the arm sits a little lower than normal and use your right hand to hold the rig up a little bit more. This can help eliminate a little of the "bounce". You can keep a firm grip on the rig with your right hand - remember your human arm is iso-elastic. Your left hand is nothing more than a light tea cup, 2 finger thing on the post. This method is a bit more fatiguing but may give you the results you need.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

[Robert J. Neep]

Kevin;

Thank you very much for your input.  I posted this about the the time you replied to my member profile.

The sled weighs (with Sony HVR-Z1U) about 14 pounds.  The COG is right in the middle of the sled pole. I am using an NP-1 Style Battery with a standard modified 7" LCD Monitor.  I have designed a threaded rod that mounts to the top of the sled to fine-tune balance.

I will try reducing the spring tension, that might work.

Also, I am having trouble balancing the rig 360 degrees, anything 10 deg from the centermark and the rig unbalances and spins. I am not sure if the sled should be exact at the COG (Top and Bottom) or if it should be slightly bottom heavy.

I will also post some video as well as a photo or two.  I have to downconvert 1080i to MPEG-1, I will do that tonight when I get home (8pm PDT, 2005-06-13)

Thank you again.

Robert J. Neep
Elk Grove, CA

[Kevin Clark]

OK, your weight sounds about right for that rig - 14 lbs. I was going to say plop on a few more pounds but that should be good. Let's make sure your properly balanced and see where that takes us.

Start by removing the camera. You first need to achieve perfect fore/aft and side to side balance of the botton stage. You should have just the battery, monitor and anything else you need down below now. Move the gimbal as far down the post as possible and then mount on the balancing side of the docking bracket. Now take a small spirit/bubble level, I use a small flat round one, and place it on the monitor arm which is perpendicular to the center post. Alternatively you could place it on the top stage since there's nothing there. Now balance.

Next, move the gimbal all the way to the top of the center post and put the camera back on. Now you want to static balance the rig. Find the CG on the post by sliding the gimbal - you want to get the rig parallel to the ground. Once this is achieved take note of how the camera wants to turn - lens up or lens down. If the lens goes up then the camera needs to be moved forward on the top stage. The reverse for lens down. This motion could also be effected by improper side to side placement of the camera so look for one side of the camera wanting to drop more than the other and make the necessary adjustments. If done correctly you should be able to spin the post 360 degreed while the post stays parallel to the ground AND you can stop the rotation at any point and nothing should move. This is very important to achieve and may take a bit of practice to know how much to push things around. Whatever you do, do not add weight to the sled at this point. That will just throw thing out of static balance. When this is done your sled should be dynamically balanced.

Now you can move the gimbal back up the post about 1/4" - 1/2". When that's done rotate the rig to parallel and test your drop time. You should be around 2 1/2 - 3 seconds. When the rig is stationary your spirit level should be dead in the center as well.

Let us know how it works out.

Kevin

[Robert J. Neep]

Kevin;

Thank you again for the advice,  I think you are correct about my poor balancing act.

Here is some video I shot to show what an amateur I am.  Notice the bounce, I think I can correct the off-horizon stuff.

Thanks again-

Robert J. Neep

[Kevin Clark]

Well I think your doing quite well. Trust me I've seen much worse. I really didn't notice much "pogoing" except toward the end when you do a close pass under some tree branches. Perhaps a little bit at the beginning as well. The wandering horizon is what caught my attention most.

A good practice technique, albeit boring, is to put a hash mark on a wall (like a big + sign) and one on your monitor screen - I keep some clear acetate sheets around so I can mark frames on my LCD without messing it up. Standing 20 ft or so in front of the wall and focusing on the hash mark, the object is to align the monitor mark with the one on the wall as you walk forewords and backwards. Be carfull you can go nutz trying to do this perfectly. 

Let's see what you can come up with after you get balanced up and detune those springs a little.

Kevin

[Robert J. Neep]

Kevin;

Thanks again for teaching me how to dynamically balance my system.  I spent about 4 hours on it tonight, I still am not quite there yet.  When the Gimbel is at the operating position (slight bottom weighted) the camera only balances at one point.  When I pan the camera any other position it tilts and spins.  I wonder if there is any defect in the Gimbel/post, or maybe I just need to work with it more.

If I am just wanting straight Z-axis smooth shots (no panning/tilting) do you know any other tricks/modifications to achieve the "Dolly on tracks" look??? I will be shooting Desert Scapes this summer.

Thanks again; you have been my only source of information.

Robert J. Neep

[Kevin Clark]

Uh oh... Yes you MAY have some more serious issues but it's hard to be definitive without more information. I have heard of one isolated issue with the gimbal on the IIa rig. First off, remove everything from the centerpost. Yep everything. Now place the post on a table or absolutely flat surface with the topstage hanging over the edge just a hair. Roll the post like you would a pool cue to make sure it is not bent/warped in any way. This is very unlikely but should be checked. The centerpost on this rig is just under 1" - about 7/8" I believe which is rather small in the sweep of things and is more susceptible to being distorted.

Assuming the post is good now slip on the gimbal and move it about half way up the post and lock it down. Grab the gimbal/post handle with one hand and the top stage with the other. Apply a little pressure in opposite oscillating directions (if that makes any sense at all) and look at where the post enters the top of the gimbal. Is there any play/looseness there? Or is the post always staying in the dead center of the gimbal? Let us know the results. Video or pics would be best.

As for the other questions about a "Dolly on tracks" look - You may not like these answers. First off, a perfectly aligned and balanced rig is a must, in my opinion, for any shot. If a rig is unbalanced in any way your setting yourself up for failure by starting with a huge handicap. Secondly, and again this is just my opinion, the slow "Dolly on tracks" look you refer to are the most difficult shots to get - particularly with lower cost rigs. I just don't believe they have the subtle smoothness (for lack of a better description) then heavier more costly rigs. My experience has only been mostly with ProVids, V16's and a V20's. But I have flown a Magiqcam IIa as well but don't have a great deal of practical experience with it at this point. As I said before, in the short time I've use it, I found that what worked best for my application was to detune the springs a little and pick up about 10-20% of the weight with my right arm. More difficult but better results.

One other thing that comes to mind... You say your doing desert shots. You may find that the desert wind will be problematic. I have no experience using a stabilizer in the desert but have read about it and seen pictures. One thing people do is add "antlers" like these to help with stability. Also in general a shorter drop time, like 1-2 seconds is favorable for very slow moving shots.

I'm sure that there are some more experienced operators that could offer some practical advise here so please chime in guys.

Kevin

[Robert J. Neep]

Kevin;

Thank you again for the advice, it has been so valuable.

I did manage to achieve Dynamic balance, I can set the rig on any axis and it stays neutral (I assume that is what you want.)  I also detuned the springs and compensated with the right arm (mine.)

I am still "The human pogo stik" though, maybe I need to find a better "walking strategy."

Would adding more weight work?  I am so afraid of damaging the Gimbel or arm.
And...  for some reason, I shoot far more steady video when I am following a subject ... weird.

I will post some photos tonight to show some of the modifications I have made.

Thank you again... I hope to improve and even help someone else later.

Robert J. Neep
Elk Grove, CA

[Kevin Clark]

Well, I'm glad to hear that you don't have a physical problem with the stabilizer and you seem to have it balanced.

I don't think you need to add any more weight, your already at about 14-15 lbs.

Many people have a tendency to over control stabilizers when they first begin using them - particularly with the post hand. I think it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice.

Kevin

[Billy Taylor]

gents, THIS is just what the doctor ordered...i also use that same camera and have a loaded weight of between 15 and 20 lbs...i realise that the monitor i use [Haier 7" w/internal battery] is being mounted in a way that PREVENTS it from adjustment...gotta try this after work...TO THE KITCHEN!!...i mean DYNAMIC BALANCE ACHIEVEMENT CENTRE!!
thanks again!

[Billy Taylor]

hey guys...thanks again for the great info...i have acquired the steadicam EFP dvd...brilliant piece of knowledge!  well worth any price...lower the better of course!